In the end I think if you're eating a McDonalds you know that you're eating crap, but whether you want to steam your broccoli or eat it raw is up to you.

I think the thing about Raw Food, is we feel restricted and it's so hard not to give in. We make excuses why we do things, i everything. We can't take responsiblity.

Eg: We seperate a calf from its mother, turn the calf into Veal and clamp a machine to the mothers udders - we say 'oh, well *we* need the milk and the meat' - looking at it like that, theres something wrong about that process, but we wont admit we are simply addicted to the taste, we have to justify our actions because it makes us feel better.

Most Raw Foodist feel this is what is right but many omniverous humans will try justify what they do, not just to animals but to fellow human beings.

Eg: "Well, we're bombing this country for peace' or 'well if we didnt pay the people in third world 1 pence/dollar an hour they wouldn't have *any* food at all'

Do you get what I am saying? If we can convince ourselves we are doing what is right than we can seperate ourselves from the guilt YET I bet if we had solid proof that Raw foodism was wrong, I bet nearly all of us would change our ways! Why because we truly believe in our hearts this is what is right?

I bet very few of us one day woke up after years of cooked crap craved a uncooked stick of broccoli, we heard about it and thought 'that sounds right' and most we're/are vegans because we don't believe killing animals because we can is right.

So, if you're changing because you miss food that is bad- but if you sincerely believe eating meat is right, then change.

Is there a link between overweight Americans and being able to raise a chicken on steroids in 6 weeks??? Or is it in my head???
I mean, those Buffalo wings are more like Turkey Wings!!!

My point being is that "Natural" meat is probably ok , and like everything else, in moderation.

Why is white meat better than red?? What is easier for our ancestors 100 000 years ago to catch, a moose, or a small bird??

So basically, the meat industry is very unnatural, the milk, the eggs, the meat, the feed, the drugs, the lies.

I eat meat but limit the amount. The healthiest people on the planet each small amounts of meat, dairy, and eggs. Moderation is the key.

To the original poster:

It seems like you've already made up your mind, and that's fine. You need to do what you feel is right for your body and your particular phase in life. I don't think you'll find many people agreeing with you here though, considering it's a raw board. I'm not going to waste time arguing your points, which I don't agree with, but instead I'm going to ask if you've read The 80/10/10 Diet by Dr. Douglas Graham. If you're concerned about energy levels this is the way to go. High fruit, low fat, eating what we would eat in nature and reaping the health and energy benefits. Dr. Graham also explains why he believes many of the things you stated are indeed untrue. It's an eye-opening book and definitely worth a try, I'm seeing amazing results as a runner and active person, and hadn't felt that great when eating a raw diet higher in fat.

In the end, you control your diet and lifestyle. So you might give a new diet a try for a month, and if it doesn't work, go back to eating cooked/animal foods. Or you might realize you've found the best way for your body to eat for the rest of your life! Best of luck to you :-)

" The healthiest people on the planet each small amounts of meat, dairy, and eggs."

Do you have evidence that i'ts the small amount sof meat and eggs (sic the dairy since that's not the case) that cuase them to be healthy OR the more plausible explanation of the high amount of fruits and vegetable intake?

superfood is right! It's not the fish or the dairy that keeps these people alive, it's the massive amount of fresh vegetables and fruits consumed. these in excess do some harm, sure, but nothing like the travesty of what animal protein does to the human body. These people live long lives for many probable reasons (normally) they are rural people (no 9-5 job, no alarm clocks), they are not obsessed with attaining capital or power, they drink pure water, they are happy, they sleep well, etc.

Animal protein is nothing but wasted calories!

"Do you have evidence that i'ts the small amount sof meat and eggs (sic the dairy since that's not the case) that cuase them to be healthy OR the more plausible explanation of the high amount of fruits and vegetable intake?"

No nobody has evidence that it is the small amount of meat, and im sure you know that.

But that is what they eat, and as far as i know they live longer then raw foodists, since their diet and lifestyle is more balanced.

No current society lives healthier and longer than these people, and that includes the raw diet.

I'm not saying that the raw diet won't help with health and longevity, or that the raw diet isn't better than other diets.
The raw diet may be better, but no evidence. So right now I am going with the evidence and eating high fruits and veggies, some nuts, raw seeds, and a little meat too.

"superfood is right! It's not the fish or the dairy that keeps these people alive, it's the massive amount of fresh vegetables and fruits consumed. these in excess do some harm, sure, but nothing like the travesty of what animal protein does to the human body. These people live long lives for many probable reasons (normally) they are rural people (no 9-5 job, no alarm clocks), they are not obsessed with attaining capital or power, they drink pure water, they are happy, they sleep well, etc.

Animal protein is nothing but wasted calories!"

Not sure where you are from, but i bet that meat, processing food, and animal protein allowed your ancestors to survive and without it YOU wouldn't exist. Does this mean YOU are a waste?? No, but i think you get the point.
Just like people on this site talk blah blah blah about how grains are bad, but billions of people rely on them everyday for SURVIVAL.
Yes millions would die without them, so this RAW diet has flaws and that it is not practical to the world. I'm not saying it is not healthy to do, but flawed anyways.

BTW, some of the healthiest diets include grains, so i do not know how grains became BAD??

Here is the latest news, the can make meat in a lab, so no more animal cruelty in the near future, meaning we can all enjoy our meat very soon:
http://gizmodo.com/5415434/scientists-grow-pork-meat-in-a-lab-an...

So would raw meat produced in a lab be ok to eat on this diet?? No animal cruelty and it is as natural as genetically engineered raw seedless oranges.

Kellyann, I am very interested in your experience eating a low grain diet. I have been trying to follow that diet, but I always have problems loosing too much weight. Do you mind posting a sample day of what you eat? you said you eat about 2500cal, how do you keep track? do you plan ahead?

Regarding changing to a omnivorous diet, one thing is for sure, no matter what type of diet you follow, we can all agree, vegetarians, pescatarians, vegans, omnivorous, etc, alike that fruit and vegetables shuld be an important part of it. So keeping that in mind, feel free to explore whatever makes you feel good. That may need some trials, and mistakes (or sucesses) but what the heck, at the end it is your body.

Take care.

" The healthiest people on the planet eat small amounts of meat, dairy, and eggs."

"Do you have evidence that i'ts the small amount sof meat and eggs (sic the dairy since that's not the case) that cuase them to be healthy OR the more plausible explanation of the high amount of fruits and vegetable intake?"

-It may also be the combination of all of them. I'm vegetarian, so I'm not trying to advocate eating meat. But, I also don't believe in intentionally being intellectually dishonest. It is true that the Okinawa people (I believe that's whom everyone is refering to) do eat some meat, dairy and eggs. To be able to isolate specifically what makes them live so long, more studies would need to be done I'm sure.

But, it is still true that the longest living people eat some meat. Is it more plausible that it's the high fruits and vegetables? Maybe. It's also very plausible that it is the combination of small amounts of meat, dairy and eggs along with the fruits and vegetables, since that is actually what they do eat.

hi raw lizard! i think the most important thing to sustain yourself is to eat enough calories. i don't count calories anymore but i did while i was transitioning to get a feel of how much i needed to eat. i recommend downloading cron-o-meter and keeping track till you get the hang of it to make sure you're getting enough calories. it helps to plan a little or just keep a lot of fruit and veggies around. i try to buy as much as i can by the case so i can save money and it makes mono eating a lot easier.

an example of my intake is:
3 lbs. of grapes
8 bananas
a liter of tangerine juice
8 dates wrapped up in some iceberg lettuce
_________________________________
another day
7 fuyu persimmons
a liter of tangerine juice (cases of tangerines are really cheap right now)
3 lbs. of grapes
_________________________________
during the summer i'd eat a ton of honeydews, berries, watermelons, peaches, figs, heirloom tomatoes, etc. but right now my staples are grapes, citrus, dates, persimmons, and bananas.

if you still eat cooked grains a good replacement is cooked potatoes and squashes because they are still a good source of carbohydrates but aren't acidic like grains.

hope this helps :)

I know this is an old post, but you really should read The China Study.... great information in that book....

Thank you Kellyann, that helps. My body is asking me for more fruit lately, so I am eating more fruits. i didn't see any nuts in your example, are you not eating them? I like to eat seeds more than nuts, but very little ( I don't like them that much).

i don't really care for nuts or seeds but if i did i would eat them every once and a while. i go though periods where i only want fruit and then times where i want some greens or salads so i just eat whatever i crave when it comes to fruit, greens and vegetables.

Again, thanks everyone for your replies! I wish I had more time to write back sooner.

At any rate, I don't call myself a vegan anymore. I've just read way too much on both sides of the coin, and way too much about nutrition... and how a vegan diet can be very high in sugars (too much fruit) and I'm sure many of you here will disagree.

I just believe that for a person to be health... sometimes changes must be made. And just like how I would not want to be on a juice fast my whole life, I still think a 30 day fast would do the body some good. And likewise, maybe I should not be vegan my whole life.

My decisions are based on my desire to be healthier and I'm 110% confident that if I feel like these changes in my diet are making me worse, then I'd gladly come back to being raw vegan in the future. I'm not closed to the idea.

I just think that for now maybe I need some changes, and that might not be permanent. I do, however, want to still maintain a high percentage of RAW foods (at least 60%, preferably much more) as I know from experience that that helps health immensely. I wish that there were more websites though, that supported non-vegan raw because since I'm starting to eat some (mostly raw) animal foods... I wish it was easier to find recipes.

Again, I may go back to being vegan in the future. Who knows? For now, I just need to do what I feel I need to do.

Thanks a lot!
~Shawn

Personally, I don't consider my health to be above that of an animal's. If I suddenly found out, beyond any doubt, that I was missing essential nutrients and not optimizing my health potential because I wasn't eating animal products, I sill wouldn't include them- I don't believe I have the right to say that I'm so much more important than an animal that my health (which, while maybe isn't optimal is still fairly good) takes priority over an actual life.

i have to agree bean! i became a vegan for ethics first and good health came as a result. there aren't any nutrients you can get from animal products that you can't get from plant foods so i feel that if you can eat in a way where no animal has to suffer than why not? thanks for your post!

100%raw vegan is not my thing. Enormous amount of groceries. No energy. Feeling weak, weak teeth, the need to supplement or use exotic food, muscle loss, constant hungry and eating all day.

80%+ RAW-food (greens, fruit, nuts, meat, fat anything) is great, lot's of energy and you don't have to feel guilty if you eat something that is not raw. Lately I noticed that greens give me more problems digesting than animal products. I try to go easy on fruit (to much sugar) . I will never ever eat or buy veal, lam or foil-gras only free range biological products.

I definitely think RAW-food is the best for humans. Only 100% raw-vegan I have serious doubts.

I decided to make my muscles bigger about a month ago and it's been a piece of cake. Of course I'm female and already had awesome tone, so I won't try much bigger. But it was easy. I'm high fruit, low fat. And of course exericse.

I don't think some people understand what a vegan is. It's not something that comes and goes, like the desire to wash dishes. It's a lifestyle, an outlook, a way of interacting with the world. It's not some fad diet. It's never done for health unless you just mean "pure vegetarian" and you're using the word "vegan" incorrectly. Veganism encompasses NOT using animal products in your household cleaners, personal care items, and clothing items.

There's a saying, "If you aren't vegan now, you never were," and I have to agree. It's not meant as derogatory. Some people take a statement like that and think it says, "If you weren't a bad person then, you are now." Well, no. Take it at face value. No one is saying you're horrible. You just weren't/aren't vegan. No big deal. If you're supposedly happy about it, then a statement like that wouldn't bother you.

To me, you either care about nonhuman animals and will continue to show that in your daily actions, and maybe you will decide to do that one day. That's great. But just be happy with where you're at now, vegan or not, and you don't have to justify your choices to anyone.

Ooh, superfood2, that's perfect! I get so annoyed when I see people treating it like it's a fad or something you just switch on and off at leisure. That's kind of the point, isn't it? That you CAN'T because it's just how you are. I've always kind of thought that even if I was stuck on an island somewhere I'd be properly effed, because I wouldn't be able to kill anything. I'd probably end up living off seaweed and coconuts! Although I think that could work- like that episode of the Simpsons, where Lisa eats the slime from the rocks and everyone else killed the pig.

Hi Belikeyeshua,

You have a lot of valid concerncs, however there are A LOT of things in your post that are what "mainstream" scientist/government/medical professionals/big industries tell us and have been proved otherwise by nongovernment funded scientists and studies.

For me I have found that the problem with my diet (even after going vegan and raw) was too much fat. I was fairly healthy until I started eating 100% raw. The amount of nuts, oils, etc I was eating did a number on my liver and digestion as well a gave me a huge candida outbreak. I have recently began eating according to 80/10/10 guidelines and feel 1000% better. I was very skeptical of this way of eating at first b/c I thought there is no way that anyone can eat that much sugar from fruit and still be healthy. Then I researched it and figured out that it's not high sugar that is bad, it's high sugar in combination with too much fat. I really think everyone should check this diet out. I heard about it many times before I decided to research it myself instead of passing it off as a radical/evangelical faction of the raw food world. Now I'm so glad that I did and I want to help others find it too so that they can get rid of their health issues once and for all...anyway enough about that.

All the issues you brought up are valid concerns, but I feel that it really comes down to what do you feel is right for you at this moment. If you don't know, I'd suggest maybe taking some time to rest and/or do some fasting while really opening yourself up to yourself. Pay attention to your body and soul and to what they are telling you you need.

So here are my arguments to some of your points:

the body needs cholesterol from foods--we don't, we produce enough on our own. (Diet for a New America and/or The Amazing Liver and Gallbladder flush for more info)

modern day raising of animals is not harming our land...in fact it is...as well as modern day agriculture. In order for animals to actually help the land instead of harm it, the farmer must practice "intensive grazing"--very few do. (Read Omnivore's Dilemma for more info)

Just because eggs don't raise our cholesterol levels doesn't mean they are good for us.

If a food can't be eaten raw, maybe it's not meant for us to eat. Just because something has been eaten for centuries doesn't mean that it was originally intended for us to eat it.

As far as vegans having colon problems too...just because one is vegan doesn't mean they are healthy. You can still be eating a very high fat processed diet which can cause digestive/colon/liver problems regardless of if it is from meat or plant foods. Even overeating on "healthy" foods can cause those problems.

Raw people are underweight...I'm a low fat raw vegan, 5'3", 120 lbs and active

You don't need as much protein and fat as the vast majority of people think...you only need 10% of your calories from fat and 10% from protein. The rest should be made up of fruits and vegetables. Mostly fruits to make sure you get enough calories.

I highly recommend the book, "The 80/10/10 Diet" Please don't pass this off for nonsense if you are really looking for the right diet. Even if you don't think this is possible for you, you should still read the book and see what it's about. It really makes sense after you see what is behind it. Also, check out the website: 30bananasaday.com---LOTS of helpful information and friendly people who can help you with any questions you have.

I hope that you find your path to health that suits you. Remember to take into consideration to what your body is telling you it needs.

Thanks for bringing up these issues, I think a lot of people wonder about the same things.

Love and health to you, Erin

Hi shgadwa. It is interesting to see that you are capable of changing.
:-)