Let's Limit our Consumption of Bee Products
Inferior, non-raw, unnatural “food for the bees, how horrible is that?”
You realize silk is just as bad as wool, everyone; right? Hopefully you don’t judge how you treat someone or any creature based on size. :( Or “intelligence,” as you perceive it. Then a bunch of handicapped and dwarfed people would be f*ed.
Well, have we all forgotten about cotton? Organic cotton? The purer and more organic it is, the warmer the cotton is.
cotton is pretty much all I wear. In the winter and fall I just wear lots of layers. The more you try to avoid going out in the cold weather, the more you seem to suffer from it. I worked outside for many years, and got to the point where i could layer a thin thermal shirt and a cotton flannel over shirt and be fine in 15 degree weather. Then there are people who can’t get out of their warm bed on a chilly morning lol! Also, at the wildlife refuge, they kept apiaries for research purposes (no experiments just to observe them) The bees would often not produce enough honey and or pollen stores to survive throughout the winter… even though no honey was taken from them. In that case, the food was supplemented, with a pollen cake mixed with honey that was placed on top of where the bees cluster. In the winter they huddle into a big cluster right on their food source where they shiver to keep warm. If they seperate they die. So a lot of times, the bees still starve, even if no honey is harvested. Although… that would be one the bees that time
jellibi, I think it is admirable that you are trying to limit your animal product consumption. I also understand that you feel natural products are better than synthetic. I choose not to use animal products because I simply want to cause as little harm to others as possible. I care so deeply about the earth and I share your concern about petro products. I guess I am just of the mind set that animals are not to use in any way we like. They are not here to serve us and provide their skin, their fur, their flesh, or their internal byproducts for our use. We humans are supposed to be evolving. We are a semi-intelligent (she says sarcastically) species and it is our responsibility to find alternatives to animals that don’t harm the earth. I also think that until we treat each other with more compassion, animals will always be abused. So on that note, until we treat animals better, we [humans] won’t care for the earth more diligently either. I hope that made sense!
As for wool, unless you personally know of someone with sheep who compassionately shear them and treat them well, then you should assume it is mass produced. Even if they are not raised in Australia, they are handled horribly due to time constraints and the pressure to produce wool quickly. They get infections which are rarely if ever treated from cuts and then exposed to harsh elements without shelter. Then they, like dairy cows, are ultimately sent to slaughter. The transport alone is gruesome.
Thank you for your very thoughtful response and your loving openness to question the impact of your choices.
I think clothing made from pure cotton is as good as your gonna get. I do have a suede pair of shoes, except the bottoms are just wood (clogs) and a down coat that still fits really well, but how are we going to make warm coats without the manipulation of animals? I wore a polyester coat one winter and just ended up bringing out a blanket whenever I go for a walk. (I do a lot of walking during the winter) Also I wear a little bit of fleece. What is fleece made of? Other than that my clothes are all cotton. So, coats without the use of down? (and without prices of $1000)?
i think some polar fleece is made from recycled milk jugs
Rest assured, this post really got me thinking. I was thinking that the least I can do is not continue to buy any more animal products. I have enough leather shoes and wool sweaters to last a lifetime, so I certainly don’t need to buy any more of those… and my daughter is just about at my shoe size too, and she can’t wait to share with me, so we are pretty much set. (Although the more I think about it, the less I want to wear animal skin on my feet. I’ll have to think that one through. I in no way can go buy new vegan clothing and footwear)
As for the beeswax, honey, and wool (for knitting, blankets,etc.), I’m pretty sure I can just do without.
Phew, I have some peace of mind now.
Thanks for being kind and gentle, vegan. It helped me to come to my own conclusions without feeling judged, pressured, or coerced.
RawKIdChef, I googled “vegan coats” and actually got a lot of hits. I think the answer is to just layer lots and lots of cotton. And if it’s rainy where you’re at, you can put a rain coat over that :)
I do have some leather shoes, and things like that…. but I only shop at the thrift store, so I figure, at least I’m recycling in that way… my choices are limited to what the thrift store has that is in decent shape, and what is on sale. except socks and underwear. those have to be new! just had to throw that in in case anyone was going to tell me ewwww gross!
Many years ago I was in a similar dilemma before I went vegan. I was already vegetarian, but had not let go of leather and wool. It seemed wasteful to me to discard the items because my rationale was that they were already dead and I did not want to purchase more. However, over time, I also felt I did not want their skin on my body. The more I educated myself about their plight, the more barbaric it all seemed. Wearing others skin or hair on my body seemed bizarre! I simply did not want to promote it and I donated all my items to somewhere like the Goodwill. The universe supported me with this decision and I found wonderful alternatives. However, not all the alternatives are as earth friendly as I would like, but I do my best.
It is a process for us all and I support you on yours. I am honored if I opened your heart a bit more.
P.S. You might want to check out the following vegan sites for clothing and eco friendly stuff. These places are pretty diligent about their products being produced without harming the animals, the workers and the earth.
http://www.veganstore.com (this is my favorite…FABULOUS service)
chicory…i just read your post and laughed! I am always amazed when people buy used underwear! Yikes. There isn’t enough natural bleach in the world to make me comfortable with that :o)
vegan – Thanks for the links!
LOL about the used underwear :D
You are welcome for the links Angie. Let me know if you are looking for something particular and don’t find it on those sites. I have other resources.
god knows what the hell one would find on used underwear! Ugh! I just grossed myself out!
I got two really warm coats from Lands End last year that were well-lined and vegan. You can call them if need be with questions and they are very nice, but everything is listed as far as what’s in the coats. One was “casual”; one for professional clothing/work.
I bet people could make coats stuffed with cotton, the way many blankets are made.
LOL about the underwear thing! I would never buy used underwear.
I buy raw honey from the local farms here, they do an excellent job caring for the bees. They have acres of alfalfa fields too where the bees go to. I hear it’s good to consume local honey if you have allergies in your area too…and because my allergies get terrible I have consumed honey, but not excessively. Bees are great and our farmers support them.
I’ve been using maple syrup instead of honey, as eating vegan is more important to me than eating raw – especially as sweeteners are (or should be) a very small part of my diet. However, I have recently found my local grocery store carries raw (temperature of processing specified on the label) agave nectar. Hoping to try this soon. Still, maple syrup is a local product and agave nectar is imported, so it’s an undecided issue.
I’m still wearing pre-vegan leather shoes, but gradually replacing with non-leather ones. I don’t own any other leather clothing but do have an old down-filled winter coat. Not sure if I’ll wear it out or donate it before I replace it. As for other non-vegan products, I’m trying to do what I think, after careful consideration, is right and hope everyone else does the same.
I have posted this before in the Discussion, “whats wrong with honey?”.
This is my HONEY STORY:
So you are a Mother and you just got home from buying alot of groceries, and you have your child in the car. You bring your child into your house and keep going out to your car to get the groceries, especially the baby food to bring into the house. You are on your last load when all of a sudden the House is covered in SMOKE!! You cant even find the entrance, you can hear your baby crying inside. You search frantically to find a way in when suddenlyâ€¦POOF! The whole house, disappears, child, food all GONE!! So this is what bees go thru bringing to thier home (the hive) groceries (honey) to thier children (baby bees) when suddenly they get smoked out (bee keeper) of thier home and thier food and children get taken away!!! Left homeless and without food, some die, some continue onâ€¦pretty sad..just for some honey that is about the equivalent of White Processed Sugar.
Try soaked Dates or Raisons, or only fresh fruit.
Agave, as much as they like you to believe, is NOT RAW!
“Try soaked Dates or Raisons, or only fresh fruit. Agave, as much as they like you to believe, is NOT RAW!”
Yes, dried and fresh fruit are sweet, but they aren’t always good substitutes for honey. Why do you say agave is not raw? Do you mean it usually isn’t raw? Just like maple syrup sometimes isn’t vegan? Where I bought it, there were two types from the same company, one labelled raw and the other not. The raw labelled one specified that it was processed at a temperature below 118 degrees F. Is it that you don’t believe the label? Or do you consider 118 degrees F. still too high a threshold? (I’ve heard a few different numbers.)
Sorry for the thread digression.
The people who say agave is not raw, that I’ve read from at least, simply are going by their “gut” and assuming that the 116 or 118 is a lie. I’ll believe a company’s label UNLESS and UNTIL proven otherwise. I’d ask the naysayers to prove that agave is not raw, if they want to state it as though it were a fact.
Since the topic is about Honey and its use, I think I gave a few very good examples for substitutes for honey, that are not processed, refined or manufactured foods. Honey is an empty sugar with no nutritional value at all, but with anything you must find what works for you. Being a vegan I find that I can not differenciate between a cow, bee or baby seal since they are all living entities filled with light energy. So I have great compassion for these bee slaves of ours, especially since there are alternatives to honey.
Not sure why maple syrup is sometimes “not vegan”. Again it is a processed and refined food, and sometimes the use of formaldahyde is used in the processing, but beyond that I have never heard of it not being vegan, but it is a step up from Honey!
Ok, now the Agave issue, it is processed and refined. That statement alone makes it NOT RAW. The word RAW on labels does not have any guidelines to it so it can be thrown out on any food label with zero responsibilty. Lets just say again that it is heated at only 118 degree which is soooooo highly unlikely (goverment standards say it must be heated to 145 degree). It is still processed and refined over the temps to keep Enzymes alive and viable for consumption.
So, this is not my “gut” feeling or I am not being a “naysayer”, I have seen how agave is “manufactured” and just like other un-raw/living foods, I have found a BETTER alternative for MY liking.
The agave thing’s come up before: http://goneraw.com/forums/being-raw/topics/our-... on August 30.
I checked out some companies and even emailed one and got an answer. Look for Mr. Mickmaster’s post (that’s me) on that thread.
They’re ALL lying? I’m with Super. Peace.
I have a fleece pullover made from recycled plastic bottles, and it’s warm. I wore it in Alaska and Iceland. There is hemp and bamboo and organic cotton now. I just got some casual shoes from Simple made of recycled tires, hemp, organic cotton, and recycled PET plastic. They were only a little more than Converse.
I think we should be encouraging the marketing of raw maple syrup. I, too, have been using Grade B Pure Organic Maple Syrup (which I don’t really see any harm in). I have had raw maple syrup on one or two occasions and I remember it tasting really good. And, yes, agave nectar is not raw, no matter how many “heated under 115 degrees F” the bottle says. The fact that it is heated at all (supposedly “under 115 F”) speaks for itself.
In fact, if we were a little more creative we could be harvesting it ourselves from the maple trees in our communities. I’ve read it is possible even if you don’t live in Vermont or Massachusetts.
I think this shouldn’t be such a “what is there left to buy” but more like “is it possible to make this”. I’d like to go back to the Neanderthals’ time and be more of an outdoorsy type. I’d enjoy harvesting maple syrup, and we wouldn’t be harming any bees!
Fleece seems, at least to me, like it doesn’t involve the skin from an animal, so I think that’s covered.
Thanks everyone for your posts about the honey. Very informative :)
I’m always baffled why honey is in so many raw recipes. Why not just use agave nectar or maple syrup? Not only do they taste better, but nowadays they’re just as easy to find.
Bees are awesome, complex creatures! And are definitely hurt in the process!
Because neither agave nor maple syrup are actually raw. I want to see if I can harvest my own raw maple syrup.
I think agave is raw. If you got spinach at the store that might have been washed with warm/hot water, you would have no idea and you would still consider it raw. In the case of agave that is labeled raw (I agree with don’t know about the non-raw labeled agave), we at least know and have a representation, whereas every single produce item you don’t know what temperature it was exposed to. So maybe I should go around and say your spinach you’re eating is not raw? No, that wouldn’t be logical. ;) if you get my point.
Also, I know about the maple syrup/vegan issue. Get one that’s labeled kosher and you’re fine. Some companies use pig fat/lard to “clarify” the maple syrup. I don’t use maple myself, as it’s not raw. I use dates, yacon syrup, agave (raw), or just eat fruit!
RawKidChef: I hear Steve Adler, creator of Sacred Chocolate, is working to see if he can get this company to make raw maple sugar for his product. Maybe someday we’ll have raw maple sugar/syrup available on a large scale! Wouldn’t that be cool? :)
YEAH that would ROCK achin! I’ve read that the raw sap is clear like water and mildly sweet, but apparently is a very healthy food when eaten raw. Anyone, really, can harvest their own maple sap, all you need is a jug and a tool to dig a 2-inch hole into the tree. You need a sugar maple tree – but these grow in most areas to my knowledge. That is awesome that Sacred Chocolate is trying to convert!
Also, here’s an article about agave:
Interesting article on agave! Gabriel Cousens says both agave and yacon are cooked. So the debate rages on…..
I wonder if some companies have developed newer technology which allows processing of agave at 118 degrees or less. It wasn’t too long ago that we didn’t have raw cacao powder and raw cacao butter, but someone figured out way to process these products at 120 degrees or less.
I’ll continue to use agave, but given the imbalanced ratio of fructose to sucrose, I’ll mix in other raw sweeteners like carob, mesquite meal, lucuma and honey. :)
I put a link with that information 9 posts back.