:)
hey… sticks & stones Kevlar

but it doesn’t bother me.

She is great…. :)

Right back at ya, Dagny, although, I hold no ill will against you. :-)

Our talks have caused me to think a lot.

Dagny, I, too, think you are very smart. I agree with everything that you say. I don’t agree, though, with how you say it. Troublesjustabubble had a legitimate question about gay marriage, something she was wondering about, something she asked her friends on goneraw instead of consulting her bible or church, and you shot her down. By definition, a liberal is someone who is respectful of individual rights and beliefs. There is no way you are going to make anyone be open to all of the things that you believe in if you continue to treat them the way that you do… and therefore, as a liberal, I cringed at your responses…

DagnyTaggart, please continue to speak as you want. There is nothing cruel or hard about your responses.

thanks, tomsmom and kevlar. Jellibi, I respect what you are saying, but I urge you to notice that many of my posts were extremely calm and reasonable until I got frustrated with what i feel is a deliberate lack of understanding on the other side. i honestly do not think it is a legitimate question to ask why gay people would possibly want to get married. i think it is an uninformed and offensive question. i believe this is shown by the fact that certain posters always return to the Christians thread to talk about how mean all the liberals are and how they’re so persecuted on the political threads. oh, how traumatic, for someone to not think it’s okay for straight people to put themselves on a higher plane than others. i’m sorry – you don’t get to act like polyanna while supporting a system of prejudice and unequal rights. in my book, a liberal is a person who thinks through things themselves and does not try to control other people. i have met many many christian liberals. i have never met a liberal who also subscribes to the fact that the bible is the voice of G-d and must be followed without question or thought to its contradictions. i am supportive of individual rights and beliefs. i am not supportive of trying to control other people’s sexual and private lives according to those beliefs (short of behavior that hurts others – like rape or child abuse).
People on this forum have very different ideas about abortion – and both are very legitimate. No matter how liberal you are, you have to admit that abortion is preventing what would be a life if you did not interfere (many of us just believe that a woman shouldn’t be forced to have a child if she conceives, and further, that laws against abortion make abortion more dangerous, not more rare) – but gay marriage is something else entirely. Who is gay marriage hurting? it is not about protecting an innocent life – like pro-lifers feel they are doing – it is about persecuting an entire group of people and denying them equal status with you. i’m not going to apologize for not reacting with sunshine when i come up against this kind of discrimination – no matter how filled with love and peace the perpetrator claims to be.
i’m sorry i made you cringe, but i’m not sorry for a word i said. i guess it escaped notice that Jews were referred to as sinners in a post by this poster who is ‘asking legitimate questions instead of referring to her bible.’ maybe that only bothers me.

I’d like to come back and say something.

dagny-Once and for all, I believe in the separation of church and state. So anything that I apply to my life that refers in any way to my religion is my own personal preference. I have nothing against gay people, Jews or any other group doing anything they want.

I do have an open mind and I am attempting to understand your view points. My question was legitimate because I simply did not know. Now I do. I don’t want gays to be excluded from any rights in this country or anyone else. I do NOT want to control/govern peoples lives and I only control my own and I do it in the way my own convictions take me.

You have criticized every point of mine because of it’s difference to yours. I never wanted to offend you but I obviously hit a very sensitive note.

I’m not saying you should be sorry in any way, or change yourself in any way. I guess what I’m saying is that I believe that we, as liberals (in my opinion) should be encouraging conservatives to ask questions of us. And, I believe, we should find intelligent and respectful replies to ensure that these things that we feel so strongly about (gay marriage, equality, freedom of choice) are considered.

I think it must be very scary for religious conservatives to realize that there is a whole world out there that is different than what they were brought up to believe. The more fearful they feel of asking questions about liberal beliefs, the less likely they will be to question anything at all. Instead of being judgmental of her and putting her on the defensive for asking, it would have been possible to simply state your beliefs and then let it go.

Who cares if she doesn’t understand your point right away? It may take a little while. Your up against things that have probably been pounded into her head since birth.

troublesjustabubble:) seems to take the Bible very literally. Dagny, as you and I know, one can be very “liberal” with their interpretation of the Bible and still live in a Christ-like manner in brotherly/sisterly love. This may differ from Beany’s ideal of Christ-like, which apparently involves gunning down wolves from helicopters and huntin’ up a storm! Ha Ha!

Anyway, I am curious how troublesjustabubble:) really feels about gay Christians and whether they should be able to enjoy the freedom that other Christians (AND non-Christians, as JoyceH so aptly pointed out) enjoy.

jellibi-we all have different reasons for why we believe what we believe. Don’t condescend and assume that I was raised with certain things “pounded into my head”. My parents NEVER talked about politics. In fact they often didn’t even talk about who they voted for on election day. I have my opinions because of all the things that have contributed to my life and made me who I am. Thank you for being gentle with me and standing up for me. I appreciate it. Your point about being respectful and intelligent should apply to everyone with every belief. So, I’m sorry if I haven’t been respectful, no matter what attitude I come across I should remember that we’re all human beings who want the same thing…..peace, and freedom.

Trouble (and Jellibi) – I’m sorry for responding with so much anger. I appreciate both of your posts above. Troubles, I have had to end a couple of good friendships in my life after learning – after quite some time of enjoying wonderful relationships with these people – that they believed that there is a hell and that I’m going to end up in it – not because I do bad things or break conventional notions of morality – but because I am a Jew and am not interested in accepting Jesus christ as my savior. I can’t tell you how much it hurts to have someone you love reveal that they believe this simply because it is something they have been taught. I don’t know the answer to whether there is a G-d or not – i know that critically I have my doubts, but that when I express these doubts, I find myself actually apologizing to the G-d whose existence i doubt in my head. I do know that if there is a G-d, it is unlikely that any politician or man in general is speaking directly to this being and can say with certainty that they understand his will. I feel very strongly that it is immoral to make another person live by your religious beliefs. to me, this is what is behind one of our biggest threats – the spread of islamic fundamentalism – and it’s just so dangerous.
Again, I didn’t mean to offend or insult either of you on a personal level and I regret having any part in making this website feel like an unfriendly place for anyone to be.

doombot-you must have posted at the same time as I did.

I do take the bible very literally. I’m an extremely literal person. Also I feel that if it’s God’s word then every one of them is.

Here’s the deal, the bible makes it rather clear the a homosexual lifestyle is sinful. So that’s where I stand. I know and have known several gay Christians and they were all basically “recovering” homosexuals. I understand it’s not natural for them to want women and they all made it clear they were not attracted to them in any way. However, it’s something they struggled with just like everyone struggles with sins. I know there are people who do take the bible far less literally than I do and find what I just said extremely offensive. So here’s what I have to say about that. You don’t have to believe in the bible but if you say you do you gotta take it for what it is.

I definitely feel they should enjoy every freedom the everyone else enjoys. But here’s where my whole point has been all along. Someone under 21 may want to drink and enjoy the freedom that all people over 21 have but they simply aren’t old enough. So since marriage is between a man and a woman two men or two women aren’t that.

I think dagny found that it actually isn’t defined that way in the constitution so in America I suppose that gay marriage should be legal.

dagny-I really appreciate that post.

I understand the doubt (who doesn’t have it?) and I hope I’m not pushing you to feel that my belief is offensive. I accept how you are because you aren’t going to change by anything I say. And that’s probably a good thing. ha

I hope I didn’t contribute to making this site unfriendly and I’m afraid I have so I’m sorry too.

Sorry about my assumption, troubles.

I was referring to religion, not politics, but I still really shouldn’t have said it. I apologize.

oh don’t worry about it. I know I come across that way. Thanks for keeping it real around here:)

Why are we talking politics on this site? This forum is meant to bring people together. While I totally understand that raw food, politics, and well, really everything are intertwined, I really think this site is meant to encourage people on their journey to raw food. I really don’t agree with this, and, if you want to talk morals and politics, join a blog with that focus.

Megan, I miss you. It has gotten pretty bad around here.

megwood~ if you don’t want to talk politics, the solution is simple: ignore this thread.

haha, i guess you’re right, doombot! thanks for the advice.
and I miss you too, Diana . . . that totally wasn’t anything against you.
:)

troublesjustabubble:) thanks for your response. It’s hard for me to understand your viewpoints, but I do respect them. :) Thank God we are all individuals! AMEN!