CAST YOUR VOTE ON PALIN
I am glad that you are asking these questions about gay marriage. That is so good because it means that you are thinking and wondering and exploring on your own. I guess what I’m trying to say is that (in my opinion) you belong to a religion that tells people how to live their lives. It is all handed to you in a little tiny book called the bible or in words that you hear every Sunday.
I know from your posts that you are an incredibly loving and insightful woman. And I also know that the only way that you can continue to grow and become your potential is if you QUESTION, QUESTION, QUESTION everything. Question the bible. Question everything you read or hear. Explore it all on your own. Then decide for yourself.
And that is what I’ve started to see you do on here and I’ve only “known” you for a month or so. Keep going—you’re on to something!!!!!!!!!
I want to add:
The trick is for you to realize that no one has the answers—because the “answers” are going to be different for everyone. Therefore, there is no way that the answers are in the bible. We all are here to have our own unique experiences and come up with our own conclusions. I respect your journey and enjoy reading about it on gone raw, just as I enjoy learning from everyone else’s journey.
So, in conclusion, no one is right or wrong. We can only learn from eachother. But it is important to realize that the only way we can truly learn from eachother is if everyone (regardless of color, sexual identity, sexual preference, religion, etc.) is given the same rights, freedoms, and privileges as everyone else.
jellibi-thank you. I appreciate what you said. It gets a little heated in here. ha
I do question everything. I wonder about things and I ask about things. My lifestyle is one in which I accept and love everyone even if I disagree with their opinions. It’s not my place to judge. Christianity isn’t about hatred and evil, it’s about love.
There are many sick and twisted people out there who call themselves Christians that say they hate gay people and hate people of different races but that is not what God is. God is Love. He says it a million times.
I will say, I live my life by biblical principles. I do believe what the Bible says. However, I’m always questioning what it means and how it applies to our lives in this world. Many people take verses to mean the opposite of what I think it means. That’s how humans are and I accept that. I just don’t question the validity or truth of it.
My goal in life is to be a positive and loving person to everyone I come in contact with. I hope this thread hasn’t brought out anything else and if it has I apologize.
I don’t hate Christianity – I hate this perverted form of it – the form that has to control other people, that cannot live and let live, that believes what it wants from the Bible while ignoring everything that is not convenient. But thank you, Christian Soldier, for helping teach the Jews (aka Sinners) how to live in G-d’s image as you do.
I’m going to go repent. But for the record, there is nothing POSITIVE or LOVING about what you are saying. I really hope your ideas evolve as you get older. I can’t believe that you don’t see the hatred and persecution in your positions, but I’m not here to change you or your ideas – my people do not prosylthize or try to convert others.
dagny-I can see you’re extremely upset. I regret coming on here since I knew that this would happen. You can’t possibly see my view on this because you most certainly believe so differently from me.
I asked my question and received a satisfactory answer from JoyceH. I should have stopped there. I now understand the desire that same sex couples have to be married. I simply do not understand why they want to be put under the veil of a religion they do not practice.
You think I practice a perverted for of Christianity but you can’t possibly know since your knowledge of Christianity is incredibly off. It’s very obvious.
You say you’re accepting but you only accept people who believe the same thing as you do and because I don’t I’m persecuted. I understand your liberal mindset but your hatred and attitude are unwarranted. I no longer will post on political threads because it’s quite obvious they’re here for liberals to bash conservatives. You can call me a “cowering minority” if you want.
I voted NO.
HI I CHARGE RAPE VICTIMS FOR FORENSIC KITS AND AM AGAINST ABORTION IN CASES OF RAPE. I dont want any woman who thinks that way as VP.
trouble—you say “the sanctity of marrige to ME is blah blah blah”
it is to YOU! it is something to everyone, not for you to dictate. i will decide what it means to me, and you will for yourself. quit living other people’s lives. by all the posting i see you doing, you aren’t even living your own. get outside and love who you want to love. leave everyone else alone.
If anyone wants to learn more about issues of gender, race, social status, gender identity, religion, and sexual orientation and how it relates to society I would recommend taking a women’s studies class. Most local universities and community colleges have women’s studies classes and they are all based on learning from eachother, histories and herstories, etc. It is extremely great to be in an environment where you can learn/talk/discuss issues such as gay marriage without fear of judgment. It is a college learning environment where one doesn’t put another down based on where they are at in their learning journey.
I would also recommend all books by author bell hooks. For newcomers into the world of women’s studies, I highly recommend the book Feminism is For Everybody, Passionate Politics, by bell hooks.
Here’s a non-partisan website that offers some help in sorting through where the candidates stand on issues and some of the misrepresentation/distortion of those stances. Thankfully this website does not seem to sway where peoples support is, but it helps a great deal when trying to discuss POLITICAL issues with intelligence. It also brings to light that there are many many many other issues at hand here….
RawK, you goofball :) The whole point of these forums is so that we can learn from eachother’s points of view. Right?!
Actually I meant just the opposite: that there’s are benefits of civil unions that people who aren’t married can and should benefit from. The word ‘marriage’ means different things in different contexts. It the civil, legal context it confers rights and responsibilities; in the religious context(s) it is something else. There’s no reason for the civic rights to be denied the general single and/or gay population. If a church or cult wants to reserve their ‘marriage’ designation for those who don’t offend them for whatever reason, great. That should be their right. But it doesn’t follow that basic civic rights should be denied to large portions of the electorate just because the designation offends some religious group or sect.
The problem comes when well-meaning religious members think they know best for others and want to make the laws/the nation reflect what makes THEM comfortable.
Our country was founding on church separate from state for a reason: to make it a comfortable, welcoming home for everyone.
Unfortunately, this separation hasn’t been maintained very well.
If you want to know how the non-Christians feel at having that separation muddied, imagine how you would feel if our national laws were changed to reflect Islam. For instance, if it became a crime for women to show their faces in public, or legal for men to beat their wives.
That is exactly how people feel when anti-abortionists, Christians, or whomever want to reverse Roe vs Wade, or otherwise promote their personal views into laws that control others.
It’s not persecuting Christians to oppose that. It’s standing up for basic human rights for all of us—you included.
“Thou shalt not kill” is one of the ten commandments, which means it’s based on religion, so let’s just legalize murder!
Separation of church and state! :-D
Trouble – my ideas of Christianity are not off. The majority of my friends are Christian – and they do not believe in the interpretation of the Bible that you champion. You say you don’t understand why gay people want to be put under the veil of a religion they don’t champion. That is so offensive. Marriage in the U.S. is a civil state of rights – it is not controlled by your religion. You get a marriage license from the state, not from Jesus Christ or from TroublesJustaBubble (as are the illusion of rights, apparently). It is not okay to hide behind a smile and messages of purported love while actually preaching a system of discrimination and intolerance. I feel it is the worst kind of hypocrisy. It is not Christian.
And I have no trouble accepting well-reasoned arguments that are contrary to my own beliefs. I’m an attorney and a writer, and I have graduate degrees in Women’s Studies and Literature. There is nothing I enjoy more than a well-reasoned and rational debate. That is not what you have offered. And everytime you are called on that, you claim that other people are filled with hatred and incapable of answering you on your terms. People are answering you, and your response is along the lines of ‘But why do gay people want what I want, when what I want is sanctioned by G-d and G-d hates gays?’
There are thousands of gay Christians out there who would tell you exactly how offensive your exclusionary practice of what can be a beautiful religion is.
If anyone is interested, here is a great article from Newsweek on Palin.
When Atheists Attack
A noted provocateur rips Sarah Palinâ€”and defends elitism.
From the magazine issue dated Sep 29, 2008
Let me confess that I was genuinely unnerved by Sarah Palin’s performance at the Republican convention. Given her audience and the needs of the moment, I believe Governor Palin’s speech was the most effective political communication I have ever witnessed. Here, finally, was a performer whoâ€”being maternal, wounded, righteous and sexyâ€”could stride past the frontal cortex of every American and plant a three-inch heel directly on that limbic circuit that ceaselessly intones “God and country.” If anyone could make Christian theocracy smell like apple pie, Sarah Palin could.
Then came Palin’s first television interview with Charles Gibson. I was relieved to discover, as many were, that Palin’s luster can be much diminished by the absence of a teleprompter. Still, the problem she poses to our political process is now much bigger than she is. Her fans seem inclined to forgive her any indiscretion short of cannibalism. However badly she may stumble during the remaining weeks of this campaign, her supporters will focus their outrage upon the journalist who caused her to break stride, upon the camera operator who happened to capture her fall, upon the television network that broadcast the good lady’s misfortuneâ€”and, above all, upon the “liberal elites” with their highfalutin assumption that, in the 21st century, only a reasonably well-educated person should be given command of our nuclear arsenal.
The point to be lamented is not that Sarah Palin comes from outside Washington, or that she has glimpsed so little of the earth’s surface (she didn’t have a passport until last year), or that she’s never met a foreign head of state. The point is that she comes to us, seeking the second most important job in the world, without any intellectual training relevant to the challenges and responsibilities that await her. There is nothing to suggest that she even sees a role for careful analysis or a deep understanding of world events when it comes to deciding the fate of a nation. In her interview with Gibson, Palin managed to turn a joke about seeing Russia from her window into a straight-faced claim that Alaska’s geographical proximity to Russia gave her some essential foreign-policy experience. Palin may be a perfectly wonderful person, a loving mother and a great American success storyâ€”but she is a beauty queen/sports reporter who stumbled into small-town politics, and who is now on the verge of stumbling into, or upon, world history.
The problem, as far as our political process is concerned, is that half the electorate revels in Palin’s lack of intellectual qualifications. When it comes to politics, there is a mad love of mediocrity in this country. “They think they’re better than you!” is the refrain that (highly competent and cynical) Republican strategists have set loose among the crowd, and the crowd has grown drunk on it once again. “Sarah Palin is an ordinary person!” Yes, all too ordinary.
We have all now witnessed apparently sentient human beings, once provoked by a reporter’s microphone, saying things like, “I’m voting for Sarah because she’s a mom. She knows what it’s like to be a mom.” Such sentiments suggest an uncanny (and, one fears, especially American) detachment from the real problems of today. The next administration must immediately confront issues like nuclear proliferation, ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and covert wars elsewhere), global climate change, a convulsing economy, Russian belligerence, the rise of China, emerging epidemics, Islamism on a hundred fronts, a defunct United Nations, the deterioration of American schools, failures of energy, infrastructure and Internet security â€¦ the list is long, and Sarah Palin does not seem competent even to rank these items in order of importance, much less address any one of them.
Palin’s most conspicuous gaffe in her interview with Gibson has been widely discussed. The truth is, I didn’t much care that she did not know the meaning of the phrase “Bush doctrine.” And I am quite sure that her supporters didn’t care, either. Most people view such an ambush as a journalistic gimmick. What I do care about are all the other things Palin is guaranteed not to knowâ€”or will be glossing only under the frenzied tutelage of John McCain’s advisers. What doesn’t she know about financial markets, Islam, the history of the Middle East, the cold war, modern weapons systems, medical research, environmental science or emerging technology? Her relative ignorance is guaranteed on these fronts and most others, not because she was put on the spot, or got nervous, or just happened to miss the newspaper on any given morning. Sarah Palin’s ignorance is guaranteed because of how she has spent the past 44 years on earth.
I care even more about the many things Palin thinks she knows but doesn’t: like her conviction that the Biblical God consciously directs world events. Needless to say, she shares this belief with mil-lions of Americansâ€”but we shouldn’t be eager to give these people our nuclear codes, either. There is no question that if President McCain chokes on a spare rib and Palin becomes the first woman president, she and her supporters will believe that God, in all his majesty and wisdom, has brought it to pass. Why would God give Sarah Palin a job she isn’t ready for? He wouldn’t. Everything happens for a reason. Palin seems perfectly willing to stake the welfare of our countryâ€”even the welfare of our speciesâ€”as collateral in her own personal journey of faith. Of course, McCain has made the same unconscionable wager on his personal journey to the White House.
In speaking before her church about her son going to war in Iraq, Palin urged the congregation to pray “that our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God; that’s what we have to make sure we are praying for, that there is a plan, and that plan is God’s plan.” When asked about these remarks in her interview with Gibson, Palin successfully dodged the issue of her religious beliefs by claiming that she had been merely echoing the words of Abraham Lincoln. The New York Times later dubbed her response “absurd.” It was worse than absurd; it was a lie calculated to conceal the true character of her religious infatuations. Every detail that has emerged about Palin’s life in Alaska suggests that she is as devout and literal-minded in her Christian dogmatism as any man or woman in the land. Given her long affiliation with the Assemblies of God church, Palin very likely believes that Biblical prophecy is an infallible guide to future events and that we are living in the “end times.” Which is to say she very likely thinks that human history will soon unravel in a foreordained cataclysm of war and bad weather. Undoubtedly Palin believes that this will be a good thingâ€”as all true Christians will be lifted bodily into the sky to make merry with Jesus, while all nonbelievers, Jews, Methodists and other rabble will be punished for eternity in a lake of fire. Like many Pentecostals, Palin may even imagine that she and her fellow parishioners enjoy the power of prophecy themselves. Otherwise, what could she have meant when declaring to her congregation that “God’s going to tell you what is going on, and what is going to go on, and you guys are going to have that within you”?
You can learn something about a person by the company she keeps. In the churches where Palin has worshiped for decades, parishioners enjoy “baptism in the Holy Spirit,” “miraculous healings” and “the gift of tongues.” Invariably, they offer astonishingly irrational accounts of this behavior and of its significance for the entire cosmos. Palin’s spiritual colleagues describe themselves as part of “the final generation,” engaged in “spiritual warfare” to purge the earth of “demonic strongholds.” Palin has spent her entire adult life immersed in this apocalyptic hysteria. Ask yourself: Is it a good idea to place the most powerful military on earth at her disposal? Do we actually want our leaders thinking about the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy when it comes time to say to the Iranians, or to the North Koreans, or to the Pakistanis, or to the Russians or to the Chinese: “All options remain on the table”?
It is easy to see what many people, women especially, admire about Sarah Palin. Here is a mother of five who can see the bright side of having a child with Down syndrome and still find the time and energy to govern the state of Alaska. But we cannot ignore the fact that Palin’s impressive family further testifies to her dogmatic religious beliefs. Many writers have noted the many shades of conservative hypocrisy on view here: when Jamie Lynn Spears gets pregnant, it is considered a symptom of liberal decadence and the breakdown of family values; in the case of one of Palin’s daughters, however, teen pregnancy gets reinterpreted as a sign of immaculate, small-town fecundity. And just imagine if, instead of the Palins, the Obama family had a pregnant, underage daughter on display at their convention, flanked by her black boyfriend who “intends” to marry her. Who among conservatives would have resisted the temptation to speak of “the dysfunction in the black community”?
Teen pregnancy is a misfortune, plain and simple. At best, it represents bad luck (both for the mother and for the child); at worst, as in the Palins’ case, it is a symptom of religious dogmatism. Governor Palin opposes sex education in schools on religious grounds. She has also fought vigorously for a “parental consent law” in the state of Alaska, seeking full parental dominion over the reproductive decisions of minors. We know, therefore, that Palin believes that she should be the one to decide whether her daughter carries her baby to term. Based on her stated position, we know that she would deny her daughter an abortion even if she had been raped. One can be forgiven for doubting whether Bristol Palin had all the advantages of 21st-century family planningâ€”or, indeed, of the 21st century.
We have endured eight years of an administration that seemed touched by religious ideology. Bush’s claim to Bob Woodward that he consulted a “higher Father” before going to war in Iraq got many of us sitting upright, before our attention wandered again to less ethereal signs of his incompetence. For all my concern about Bush’s religious beliefs, and about his merely average grasp of terrestrial reality, I have never once thought that he was an over-the-brink, Rapture-ready extremist. Palin seems as though she might be the real McCoy. With the McCain team leading her around like a pet pony between now and Election Day, she can be expected to conceal her religious extremism until it is too late to do anything about it. Her supporters know that while she cannot afford to “talk the talk” between now and Nov. 4, if elected, she can be trusted to “walk the walk” until the Day of Judgment.
What is so unnerving about the candidacy of Sarah Palin is the degree to which she representsâ€”and her supporters celebrateâ€”the joyful marriage of confidence and ignorance. Watching her deny to Gibson that she had ever harbored the slightest doubt about her readiness to take command of the world’s only superpower, one got the feeling that Palin would gladly assume any responsibility on earth:
“Governor Palin, are you ready at this moment to perform surgery on this child’s brain?”
“Of course, Charlie. I have several boys of my own, and I’m an avid hunter.”
“But governor, this is neurosurgery, and you have no training as a surgeon of any kind.”
“That’s just the point, Charlie. The American people want change in how we make medical decisions in this country. And when faced with a challenge, you cannot blink.”
The prospects of a Palin administration are far more frightening, in fact, than those of a Palin Institute for Pediatric Neurosurgery. Ask yourself: how has “elitism” become a bad word in American politics? There is simply no other walk of life in which extraordinary talent and rigorous training are denigrated. We want elite pilots to fly our planes, elite troops to undertake our most critical missions, elite athletes to represent us in competition and elite scientists to devote the most productive years of their lives to curing our diseases. And yet, when it comes time to vest people with even greater responsibilities, we consider it a virtue to shun any and all standards of excellence. When it comes to choosing the people whose thoughts and actions will decide the fates of millions, then we suddenly want someone just like us, someone fit to have a beer with, someone down-to-earthâ€”in fact, almost anyone, provided that he or she doesn’t seem too intelligent or well educated.
I believe that with the nomination of Sarah Palin for the vice presidency, the silliness of our politics has finally put our nation at risk. The world is growing more complexâ€”and dangerousâ€”with each passing hour, and our position within it growing more precarious. Should she become president, Palin seems capable of enacting policies so detached from the common interests of humanity, and from empirical reality, as to unite the entire world against us. When asked why she is qualified to shoulder more responsibility than any person has held in human history, Palin cites her refusal to hesitate. “You can’t blink,” she told Gibson repeatedly, as though this were a primordial truth of wise governance. Let us hope that a President Palin would blink, again and again, while more thoughtful people decide the fate of civilization.
Harris is a founder of The Reason Project and author of The New York Times best sellers â€œThe End of Faithâ€ and â€œLetter to a Christian Nation.â€ His Web site is samharris.org.
Kevlar, your post makes ZERO sense. Murder is not illegal simply because it is in the 10 commandments. Murder is illegal because a society cannot operate in orderly fashion if people can kill others with impunity.
I’m taking my smoothie, signing off, and going to work. So frustrated.
Thank you Dagny for your intelligent and reasoned response. Can we hope politics are in your future?
Murder is illegal because everyone in our society acknowledges that it’s wrong, and we didn’t need a book to tell us that, but since “thou shalt not kill” is a directive in just about every religious text in history, one could make the argument that it’s based on religion.
Come to think of it, “thou shalt not steal” is also written in just about every religious text.
Let’s legalize stealing!
So much for separation of church and state.
My point is that abortion is not a religious issue. It’s a moral one.
Ask yourself deep down if it’s right to end a life once it’s started, no matter how underdeveloped it is. I’m sure glad my parents didn’t end mine.
Dagny, that is a good opinion piece. It takes so much to be in leadership. Leaders do need to know more than the “average joe” and speak intelligently to a variety of issues, and be qualified on a variety of levels. Unfortunately, peoples opinions vary in what makes a good leader. It is not a good idea to put someone in leadership that is not qualified or equipped to LEAD. We must be reasoning people and THINK about what we are saying and arguing.
Fun Trivia (many probably know the answer to this already): Who is the president from the last 50 years with the highest IQ? Who with the lowest?
Lastly, I am VERY interested to know this: WHO!!?? are the advisors to Mc/P and O/B??? We will be able to speak a little more intelligibly on all of this if we knew that…. since often the advisors are the voices we are really hearing. It will reveal much about what’s behind the scenes and what could come.
Kevlar: Murder isn’t illegal because it’s immoral or because everyone in our society acknowledges it’s wrong, it’s illegal because our laws and constitution protect human rights and life.
Kevin and Dagny have it right.
Who do you think wrote the Constitution? God? Atheists?
Whose morals were at work there?
Kevlar – this thread got onto the track of discussing same sex couples being allowed to legally marry. You stated in another post that you were for gay marriage. (Me too and a lot of folks here!!!)
I think the other Palin thread is still on the abortion stuff. Or maybe I’m confused by the 2 threads..
Care to give your thoughts on same sex couples having the civil and human rights to get married?
“The definition for Christian is, â€œChrist likeâ€. Palin is Christ like.”
Beany~HahahahahHA! that is very enlightening.
Nah, greenie brought it up, Joyce.
Greenie wrote: “That is exactly how people feel when anti-abortionists, Christians, or whomever want to reverse Roe vs Wade, or otherwise promote their personal views into laws that control others.”
While I’m for gay marriage, I can understand where the Christains are coming from. They made up a religion, they are against homosexuality, they created something called marriage between a man and a woman, and here the gays come saying they want to be a part of it. If I were a Christian, I’d be pissed too.
Civil unions are legally equivalent to marriage, but that’s not good enough. It seems like gays won’t be satisfied until they’re legally entitled to marry in Christian churches, even though the Christian bible forbids homosexuality.
But. I’m an atheist, so I don’t care. And I also understand that’s it’s important for everyone to be treated the same under the law, and since marriage has become more of a legal union than a religious one, I say, what the hell.
Just don’t be surprised when Christians are offended when an institution they hold sacred is hijacked.
According to the Bible, money-lending is a sin. I wonder if Sarah Palin uses a credit card?
I didn’t think marriage was something created by Christians or owned/governed by Christains. What about Jews, Muslims, hindus, buddists, atheists, etc? All these people partake in the marriage ritual…I guess I don’t understand why a non-Christian heterosexual couple can get married and a same sex couple cannot. Like DagneyTaggart researched, the constitution doesn’t say gay marriage is illegal….
And why should the religious conservatives be so upset over this issue. If they are against gay marriage, well then they don’t have to have one ;-)
Dagny thank you once again for your contribution. The article was very insightful.
You are a grounded voice of reason & logic. And we truly need more people like you. Kevin has a point too – you’d be great in politics. Your leadership skills are amazing.
^ wow, way to kiss up.
You’ve got a good point there, Joyce.
this is sort of a personal topic for me b/c I have gay friends who are really wonderful people just like you and me. I just want them to be treated equally and fairly and have the same basic human rights…..like I said before, it’s not the Nineteen f**king fifties anymore :-)
Doombot – sorry if we hijacked your thread a bit…
Joyce, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Greenghost and Kevin – I’m very flattered – thank you. I could never be in politics though – I take criticism way too personally and I don’t have tolerance for having to compromise your beliefs in order to get anything done. Plus, G-d knows what pictures of me in college are floating around out there. ;)
Doombot – LOL re the credit card. As long as she doesn’t masturbate, I say we should let her live.