good point, ron4540…i think we are being really selfish when we train animals to do as we wish! and i, too, try to ‘tread lightly’, as you so eloquently put it. i know i wouldn’t like to be controlled, scolded for doing what is in my nature to do, and fed COMPLETELY unnatural food which could give me cancer and didn’t taste good…i mean, come on…do dogs and cats REALLY bake their food and eat rice in the wild?
i, however, do not feel it is my duty to scold, browbeat, or lecture anyone who feels differently. it’s not in my job description. i don’t need to fight for my beliefs. i find that people who fight for their beliefs tend to be hypocrites! not all of course, and not to offend.
as for the ‘raw recipe’ issue…i am phasing honey out of my diet in favor of other things…dates, agave nectar, etc., but the question of honey being vegan has long been debated. bees aren’t animals…they’re insects. so, i don’t know! i don’t see anything wrong with posting recipes with honey in them…it’s easily enough substituted. those of us constructing burgers from nuts and pasta from squash ought to be industrious enough to substitute without much of a problem. i don’t think we should have obviously non-vegan recipes here, though, with meat or dairy. i feel like that’s out of the realm of this website.
i think as far as the recipes go, they ought to be raw and vegan, although i’m guilty of posting a recipe with raw honey too. i’ve since switched to using agave. i never had a philisophical problem with using honey, i just think agave is a healthier alternative.
i think the problem lies with the fact that you can still be raw without being vegan. i feel like the raw vegan lifestyle is the healthiest possible, and that is what i strive for, but i’m not perfect. one suggestion: maybe provide a dead food list on this site in the recipe section so newbies will know what is and isn’t okay to post in recipes. or mark the recipes as not vegan or transitional.
LovesPeter: Let’s lighten up on people! Gone Raw isn’t about labels at all. It is about each of us helping each other on our journey.
Honey is a debated issue with vegans and we recognize that here. Personally, I choose not to use or eat honey. That’s my gig. But, as posted in an earlier discussion of a similar issue: The fact that so many people here on Gone Raw are doing their darndest to eat raw, vegan food is absolutely astounding. And, I’m sure not going to tell someone who eats honey that they cannot self-idenify as vegan.
That said, my overall notion is that a majority of folks eating a vegan diet do not eat honey. When you are posting a recipe with honey in it, perhaps think about something that can be substituted instead. That way, many more people on this site can benefit from your sharing because so many of our members won’t be making the recipes that call for honey.
In response to debbietook, on how humans have free will and can choose either to cause suffering or not:
This is a good point, but what happens when it comes down to: I really don’t want to kill that fish and eat it, because I don’t want to cause suffering… but I feel really weak and my hair is falling out, even though I have tried EVERYTHING to stay vegan and healthy!
Granted, its really hard to tell that someone IS doing everything, but what if? What if someone really, honestly, CANNOT survive as a vegan, either because of who they are or where they live. The only example I can really think of would be Innuits (sp?). They surive because they eat meat, and lots of it. I’m pretty sure its mostly seals though? Either way, try to tell someone like that “You have a free will and can choose to not eat meat.” Honestly, is there a choice when it is life / health over ethics? This also goes along with what someone else said with plastic shoes vs. leather.
I think the reason that many people go “vegan” is to inflict as little harm upon the world as they possibly can. This includes not using synthetic materials, not killing animals (unless it would actually kill YOU not to eat some animal flesh), not consuming dairy or honey unless it is local and raw… etc. However, it is true that, by definition, this is not vegan (since dairy, honey, and using wool or leather is not vegan)... HOWEVER… you’re still having a FAR less negative impact on the world than someone on SAD. And, it can be argued, that consuming local and organic, raw animal / bee products is NOT harmful to the environment, or the animal/bees at all.
If the definition of vegan was: without harm to animals or insects – then vegans could consume local, raw, organic dairy and honey, as well as use wool (also preferrably locally gathered, from ethically treated animals, etc)... But its not. Instead, it seems many people are trying to fit themselves into a vegan title so that they can be better understood. I’m sure most of us prefer not to be labeled, but its a lot easier to say “vegan” than it is to say: “I do everything I can to have less of a negative impact on this earth, which means to not eat this, or that I can consume/use this, etc.”
I think that we might be searching for a different label… but since few people enjoy being labeled nobody is going to make one (why bother?) so we just tack on “vegan” for simplicity.
True, its being used incorrectly, but we all get the point.
If one is wearing wool and leather, one is not vegan. I’m confused as to what you mean by “lighten up.” My statement was not a judgement, but rather a clarification. If my post made YOU feel defensive for some reason, I would say that is your issue to explore within yourself.
I find the labeling discussion very interesting. I don’t really like labels either, because it’s never quite 100%. It’s maybe 100%, 95% of the time, or maybe it’s never ever 100%, but 98%.
So we say “vegan” or “raw” for simplicity sake to help people understand us, and then they later cite some inconsistency. “Oh… so at home, you use soap without animal fats, but you don’t bring your own soap to hotels or to the office bathroom?” You all know what I mean.
Personally, if someone posts a recipe with honey, I don’t really mind. But I do like the idea of a listing someone on the homepage of non-raw / non-vegan or questionable foods (and then people can decide for themselves).
By the way, I just discovered that nori can have up to 10% fish in it, and still be called nori. Yuk!!! I eat lots of sushi rolls, and just found this out. However, I’ll probably continue to eat sushi. It’s like getting a prescription medicine that has a small amount of gelatin, or a vaccine that comes from eggs. There will always be tiny, unavoidable things that shouldn’t make us feel bad in any way. Heck, imagine what the world would be like if just 90% of the world ate 90% vegan.
Also, I feel like I ate the SAD diet for so many years (you know, as a kid when you don’t really have a choice), that I can’t condemn meat eaters, non-raw people, etc. Life is a continuous process of learning and growing, and we’re lucky enough to have this “community” so that we don’t have to go it alone.
I think what Kandace was refering to in her post was a response to what you typed at the end of your post “have some integrity”. That could very well be misconstrued by MANY people as being confrontational. In addition, suggesting that Kandace may need to work on “issues” could also be misconstrued as confrontational. When I spoke in an earlier post about gentle reminders to others to be supportive of every person’s individual journey, this is what I was speaking of. I will preface my next statement with – this is not meant to be confrontational to you (or anyone else)- but perhaps when any of us find ourselves in a discussion that makes us feel we have to post statements such as these, we need to look at OUR issues and figure out why we feel the need to do this.
As for the vegan issue…like I said, it is a difficult topic. I personally feel that I don’t fit into a vegetarian “label” because I don’t eat meat, animal milks, or other dairy. However, I do on occasion have local raw honey. Because of this, I identify more with the title vegan, because I don’t eat foods that would cause an animal to loose it’s life (meat), or loose a meal (baby animals that need the milk to grow healthy and strong. Yes, I said animals, not insects such as bees). So, you can call me what you will, but I feel confindent in my choices. I came to this lifestyle not because of animal rights (sorry guys, it’s the truth), but because of my love for the planet and my health. This is my was of making a personal impact on my environment.
Hope that made sense, I am typing with a 3 year old pulling on my arm, kinda hard to think and type when that is going on…LOL!
i agree with all those who stay clear of labels. i think sentences that start with positives are friendlier anyway. instead of i don’t eat dot dot dot, i try to say “i eat raw fruits, raw vegetables, raw nuts and seeds.”
this is a problem i see in a lot of “movements.” they define themselves in terms of what they are against rather than what they are for. guess what gets more attention and wins?
i think vegan is a conscious intent to do what is favorable for humans, animals, and the environment, based on your available knowledge.
awareness of WHAT IS WHAT is an issue here. i am still learning how to shop totally raw and vegan. i have a leather wallet from back when i wasn’t vegan. throwing it out because it is leather would be wasteful in my opinion. when my wallet is worn out i will seek out a durable non-animal wallet. i didn’t know that some wines are non-vegan for example but just because i had a glass of fetzer red the other night (and THEN found out… i will no longer be buying it) shouldn’t smear my entire record since my decision to be “vegan.”
we have to do the best we possibly can and not snub others who are doing the same. inform, don’t scold.
Pianissima – thats a really great point… to focus on the positives, and not the negatives. It seems so obvious and yet is overlooked.
And I also agree that little “slip-ups” while someone is becoming vegan, or even has been for some time, won’t immediately make you lose your “status”. Nobody can fit into any one definition 100% of the time. If you’re 100% of something 98% of the time, then that’s as much as can be expected. If you have one cooked meal in a slew of raw meals (say, one cooked out of 100 or more raw), you’re not going to suddenly think: Oh no, I’m not raw!!! ... the same can be said for having some dairy, or owning a wool blanket when one is vegan. You just happen to have that blanket, or had some raw milk… you’re not “suddenly” un-vegan anymore. As long as you don’t habitually buy wool blankets and eat cheese on a daily basis, then its probably okay to call yourself vegan… and I don’t think you should be condemned for that after having or doing something “un-vegan” maybe one day out of the year.
As for having a place on the main page for “questionable” ingredients, both raw and vegan, I agree. Its definitely a good idea for newbies, so they can decide how much they want to incorporate both raw and vegan (and not be lost on the way).
As for being too nitty gritty with the vegan AND raw details and ingredients in recipes… As has been said, we all have different understandings of the same term. And all uncertain ingredients can be substituted with something else. A substitution chart on the main page might also be a good idea.
Vegan = no animal products whatsoever. Fine.
Raw = no cooked item whatsoever. Also fine.
Being 100% vegan raw 95% + of the time is enough, in my opinion, to consider one’s self vegan and raw. If someone is confused, they can ask questions. There’s nothing wrong with that. I’m sure nobody here would be worried about answering someone’s concerns as to why a “raw vegan” just ate a cooked meal, or some honey, or even some dairy or sashimi. It would be quite troubling to find yourself craving some raw fish one day out of not having it for a year and be so hung up over “but i’m a vegan!! I can’t do that!!”. Having raw fish that one day won’t ruin a year of previous “veganhood”. Getting as close as possible should be considered enough – its really the best that can be expected without driving someone nuts.
Of course, as has been repeated, it seems best to just forego labels. But that seems difficult sometimes when surrounded by SAD eaters who label YOU (whether or not you want to be) as the “vegan”. I love being known as that, personally, because it shows I have made decisions about my well-being and have taken RESPONSIBILITY for my health. I do NOT love it, however, when it means I am going to be chastised for eating some cheese.
what i am about to state is meant to be taken constructively and not in anyway to offend anyone! i will start with that so as to avoid any confusion…;-)
to lovespeter: your two comments did offend me mildly, i must admit. i hope it wasn’t meant to offend, but i think i’m not the only one who felt that way. your adherence to such a strict regimen is really something to admire; i applaud you for it. but sometimes a little more tact can keep everyone happy. there are more gentle ways of clarifying.
in your defense, i looked up ‘veganism’, and you are absolutely right…vegans do not wear fur, leather, silk, or use anything that has been somehow derived from an animal.
so, i will no longer tell people i’m vegan. i will now stick to ‘i am a raw-foodist who does not eat animal products for the most part but who occasionally eats unpasteurized honey…and who wears wool because it’s warm and leather shoes because most plastic shoes suck…and who uses only vegetable-derived soap but who occasionally uses public bathroom soap if i forgot my own…” lol
just one more lesson: labels bind you into a box. you can defend it any way you like; but angry methods will only serve to drive people away from your way of thinking. think of how many people may read things like that and think that 100% vegans are rude and elitist! be sure to represent your kind the right way!
that said, i am not a vegan. damn.
jamestheraw~ You may not be a vegan (anymore), but you can say you have a sense of humor. :-)
You guys are killin’ me…”angry methods?”
Where do I express a lack of tact in saying that vegans don’t wear leather and wool? I think of someone who, say, does not eat animals but still wears them as maybe “nearly vegan,” or another such accurate description. Is that offensive? In what way?
If you choose to wear leather shoes because they are more fashionable, despite what I’m sure you know is involved in processing animals for human consumption, then that is your choice. But PLEASE, do not refer to yourself as a vegan, simply because it makes you feel or sound cool. I think that happens alot, unfortunately. Glad to read that you’re planning to more accurately define yourself. It is so important for those who are considering becoming vegan to understand what it is and isn’t…
With respect to the issue of not wanting to be “in a box”...I know that many ethical vegans such as myself are more than happy to be clearly defined as such. It is a statement to the world that we do not believe in using animals, who have a right to exist and to not suffer, for our own vanity or taste experience. I fully support others where they are, at the same time, making a clear distinction between those who are vegan and those who are not. I make no apologies for that, and do not see that I need to “lighten up” or be more “tactful.” Frankly, for such an otherwise enlightened forum (I assume, as we are all on a raw food path), I am taken aback by the lack of fundamental understanding of what veganism is, and by anyone taking offense at my effort to educate and clarify. Tell your hurt feelings to the animals in factory farms. Or watch Earthlings. I think if you can make it through the whole documentary, it might effectively ruin the urge to make ha-ha jokey-jokes about vegans. There is no reason for me to downplay the truth of things for people on this forum to feel more comfy about eating animals. I’m concerned about THE ANIMALS :=)
I have to say everyone here has good points….I agree with pianissina. If you owned something prior to your change, why waste? There is so much waste in this world. I have a few things from before my change to veganism. My plan is to buy all cruelty free products when the old products are worn out. Not to mention some of us are on a budget and need to make these changes when possible. I am not going to tell someone they are not vegan because they have a pair of shoes or a blanket.
LovesPeter- I don’t think anybody thinks you were offensive in saying that vegans don’t wear leather and wool. Instead, it was both how it was said and, more likely, the last sentance – “have some integrity.” This can be viewed as offensive.
Also, Jamestheraw didn’t mention wearing leather shoes because they are more fashionable (unless I am mistaken?). And he certainly didn’t say he was referring to himself as vegan because it made him “feel or sound cool”. It is saying things in this manner that people may take you offensively, when really it just seems to be a misinterpretation. It seems to me he just really didn’t know that being vegan required the use of absolutely NO animal products (no exceptions).
So, as you have clearly defined, veganism is first and foremost a way of life based upon the philosophy of no-harm to animals, which includes not consuming or using any products from them. This includes things like no wool from sheep (so, the event of sheering a sheep is thus deemed unethical by a vegan).
Would this also apply to pets? Is it unethical to cut a dog’s coat, either for style or at all? Or is it perhaps dependent upon the weather and how comfortable the dog will be?
Is it ethical to spay and neuter a pet according to a vegan? This probably isn’t the pet’s idea of kindness. Can we spay and neuter current pets for a principle of non-harm to future animals/pets?
What about feeding a pet kibble? This is clearly unhealthy for them, and will be doing harm to them. Is this allowed?
What about owning pets at all? Owning a dalmation (or similarly domesticated and breeded dog) is supporting the long line of breeding that has brought that breed about, the domestication of animals at all, and any possible harm that came to the animals in the process. It supports the taking of an animal from the wild (which can be said to have harmed it) and domesticating it. The same could be said for cats, who survive very well outdoors and, in many cases, less well indoors (ignoring cases of being hit by cars or hurt in other untimely manners).
Or do vegans ignore these past transgressions and look at things in a more timely manner? As in, that dog is in the kennel (homeless) and would be better off if I took it home. You would, on one hand, be supporting animal ownership, but on the other you would be making that one dog very happy. Where do vegans stand here?
Does veganism even extend to pets, or just farm and wild animals? I am actually uncertain of this and am really interested to know the answer.
EDIT: Also, what about owning carnivorous pets and feeding them? Does a vegan think it is okay to buy animals / animal flesh for the consumption of their or any pets? Or do vegans support NO purchase or use (in the case the pet is allowed to hunt) of ANY animal products AT ALL, despite any harm this may do to a carnivorous pet? (Because this assumes that a vegan would be feeding their dog or cat a vegan diet, which is harmful to the pet.)
okay, i wasn’t going to reply to this, but i would feel bad if i didn’t…
this has become a heated topic. people should come to this website as a makeshift ‘sanctuary’ from the majority of the world that looks at us as freakish radicals. i didn’t come here to argue with people or cause myself anguish. i now have a total knot in my stomach because someone is offended and feels that their beliefs are being mocked, generalized, and/or glamourized.
calling oneself vegan in their eating habits is not something most people do to sound ‘cool’. although, i don’t doubt that there are a lot of people who do. but please do not assume that sounding cool was my intent: my eating habits are closer to vegan than anything else. we are used to using such terms around people because most people eat mcdonald’s and other waste for every meal, and in order to inhabit the earth peacefully alongside them, sometimes we must simplify things a little so they understand. it really sucks to be stuck in a ‘grey area’ where you have to take 10 minutes to explain what you will and will not put into your mouth to everyone who asks you!
and furthermore, at the risk of fanning the flame in regards to this argument: you may stand up for animals and their welfare, and on some level, i’m sure they thank you for it. but you seem to have very little regard for the feelings of your fellow humans. you do realize you’re a human too, right?
and also, to katie-
thank you so much for that comment. you opened my eyes a lot! i always thought of people ‘boxing themselves in’...but if you think about it, that’s impossible. life has too many angles. too many points of view. if one tries to do that, they really only create more unnecessary strife.
you have enlightened me, in a way. thanks again! ;-)
No problem. :) It was just my philosopher-self poking through – I really do love to get at an issue from all angles to try and clarify it.
i can only laugh at this.. why? for one.. most vehicles have leather whether you choose a cloth interior or not.. how about homes? fridge gasket liners? insulation? carpets?
you cant tell me your still 100% vegan if you live in a home that is not 100% that you pay money for, which means you indirectly support that.. if you are making the attempt to say your a true vegan.. there is somethings you cant do anything about.. and you know that.. such as your home, your bicycle, or your car..
Post up when you build your home 100% vegan.. post up when your car or bike is 100% vegan.. Post up when you x out the animal derived paints, colorings, moldings,etc. i doubt you can do that..
you live in a NON vegan society .. you can only do so much till you make moves or someone has done it for you.
exactly. if you like to nit-pick, then do so. but it’s a rare person that would say, “oh, god! my FRIDGE GASKETS were not produced in a way that was not harmful to animals! i have to hurry up and destroy it and get a new animal-friendly refrigerator! i hope PETA doesn’t find out about this!” like, come on. you’d have to live in a sod-house with no electricity, not drive a car, not WALK (walking involves treading upon insects and micro-organisms…not to mention perhaps a dog’s tail)... you harm things every day and other things harm you too. i mean, do your best, but clearly, there are very blurred lines fencing the subject…;-)
There is a great deal of defensiveness in this thread.
I believe that to call onesself a vegan if one truly is not, is an issue of integrity and honesty. I am blown away that I am expected to walk on eggshells so as not to offend the easily offended here. Guys, seriously, all I can say is that I strongly suspect that those of you who are in any way tweaked by my directness(and that’s all it is, folks, sorry if it’s threatening)have not thought much about the suffering that animals experience, or about whether they deserve to die for our taste buds and food addictions, and maybe you’ve been afraid to watch any of the documentary footage of animals being processed for food…it is really tough, I know. But, I’ll ask you to consider doing it anyway. Perhaps, afterward, I will not seem so “offensive.” That stuff is easy to find on the Internet. PETA has some nice video, I know.
For the record, I am the only vegan in my family. The man I live with is a carnivore. Trust me, I know how to get along with and love nonvegans. I don’t judge them, or any of you who are not vegan. Nor do I apologize for telling the truth.
I am MORE than familiar with the kind of responses I’ve gotten on this thread. I wonder why the vegan is always supposed to tip-toe around the feelings of the nonvegans, while they continue to eat animals, wear animals, because, let’s all face it, that’s just indifference in the face of unbelievable cruelty. I’ll just keep calling it what it IS and you can be offended to your heart’s content. But it would be so much more useful if you’d put your sensitive feelings aside, and your egos, and think about the animals.While you’re at it, read The China Study and learn about the link between animal protein and cancer.
Take care, all, and I really do wish veganism for all of you, in the end. It’s a win-win for your health and for the animals.
yet he decides not to respond to my message..
mister mister.. my columns in my car are made of leather.. yet i dont eat or where anything of animal nor do i consume honey.. Am i truly a vegan? can i join your club? what are you prerequisites..
i have to say i think we are ganging up on lovespeter here.
lovespeter- you have a strong point. veganism is clearly defined. however, i think what everyone else is saying is that we don’t believe that if you live in the modern world even YOU could entirely practice what you preach. it is an impressive GOAL that i’m sure we would all LOVE to work towards, but to say that even you fit the “vegan” description seems to me to be absurd.
there is just so much that revolves around the livestock industry that you might not even know about. you may not buy the leather shoes, but maybe the manufacturer is a parent company of the company who makes the mason jars you use to sprout broccoli seeds. it’s so hard to say exactly where our money goes. but if we KNOW we are causing harm, i think we should aim to stop.
i agree with your definition, but i think INTENT is more important than perfect execution.
i didn’t know about fridges and stuff!!! that’s gross. there must be other materials they could be using, and i’m sure one day, if they thought enough people would buy them, there will be a company that sells cruelty-free, environmentally conscious (we have a check check on that one already!) kitchen appliances… this is POSSIBLE. i think our standards SHOULD be high, but in the meantime we have to work with what we have and not beat up others who are trying to do their part!
p.s. i love my EARTH shoes—100% vegan and not pleather! ;)
p.p.s i love this discussion!
pianissima is probably right. i guess we shouldn’t take so much offense. but it does seem to me, again, at the risk of fanning the flame of this argument, that CERTAIN issues are not being responded to. i LOVE civil arguments where people can expand their frames of mind…i learn so much from this sort of thing, as i have today…but the real questions: ‘what about shaving/keeping/fixing pets?’, ‘what about your car/fridge/gasket linings?’, ‘what about feeding carnivorous pets?’ have gone conveniently unanswered. and i really want to know! not because i want to win an argument, because i’m not ashamed to say that i was wrong or misinformed, but because i REALLY want to know!
i guess no one is answering because these are TOUGH questions.
honestly, i’ve never thought about domesticated animals as being abused. these are my gut feelings, which i’m sure will be somewhat overturned by the responses that follow…
like children, it really depends on the family they get. some are loved, some are abused. i think it’s totally fine to rescue a dog and keep it as a pet, especially if you have a big yard and respect it’s need for open spaces by hiking etc… the purse dog is not a fashion trend i particularly agree with! ani phyo feeds her dog a completely raw vegan diet and he thrives on it. her vet. apparently thinks this is wonderful. i would LOVE to do this next time i have a dog.
as for fixing: consider the alternative: more unwanted, possibly abandoned puppies. it’s not like you can have a talk with them about condoms. i think this is OK provided they are properly tended to.
cutting- now that just seems obvious to me… it grows back, we do it for their comfort if they are big hairy dogs in warm climates… (yes, they SHOULDN”T be in a warm climate… it would be nice if we kept breeds in their appropriate climates)
i gave my opinion about the car/fridge etc… i will wait till they wear out and hopefully by then ALL OF YOU will have spoken up and there will be a new market for vegan products!
over to you…
yeah, it’s strange territory. and i DO talk to my dog about condoms…lol
no, i have a dog and my whole family loves him. he’s an italian greyhound and he’s adorable. but, i won’t buy another dog after him. i’ve thought a lot about pets in the last year or so…they really belong with their kind, hunting and scavenging and so forth, whatever they do to eat. i think they should be rescued if they’re in trouble. i think they should be fixed so that they don’t overpopulate. but, to take a carnivore and make it eat a vegan diet just because i do seems strange. sort of like drinking milk from another animal…lol…
and buying meat for your dog is supporting a nasty, nasty business! so, what do you do? i swear, i’m going to research this, because i want to know what ‘authentic vegans’ think about it…;-)
james~ You can delete a message by logging in. Goto message. Click on Edit in the message (upper right corner of the message) you want to delete. Click DELETE POST in the upper right corner of the green window (to the right of where it says Formatting Help).
Would just like to say that I am 500% WITH ‘lovespeter’. I find it interesting that jamestheraw started this debate with a statement that those who think vegans shouldn’t wear wool scarves are ‘anally retentive’ (!), then lovespeter comes along and simply states what a vegan is, calls for integrity (what exactly is wrong with that?) and is told SHE is ‘confrontational’! (I sometimes wonder how the great spiritual leaders of the past would fare in 2007? I don’t think they’d be able to get a word out without being described as ‘confrontational’, ‘judgemental’, etc!) Realise that it’s difficult for vegans to cover all the bases in their lives, but wool is an obvious, isn’t? No, vegans don’t wear wool. In my 49 years of being alive, I’ve twigged that, and I don’t think it fair of those who for some reason want to call themselves vegan and do choose to wear wool (their right I suppose) to then make those who are doing nothing more than being vegan feel bad! Lovespeter, VERY best wishes to you! I hope you develop a few more hides in order to deal with any ‘not-enough-lurve’ comments that may come your way in the future (and I say this as a non-vegan but one who applauds your bravery, honesty AND integrity!)
bluedolfin- thanks so much! i never noticed that before! you’re the bomb from new york to milan!
debbietook- this thread has been a big learning experience for me in terms of veganism. i should not have said that about ‘true vegans’ (and i say that without any note of facetiousness! ;-) ); i wasn’t thinking when i stated that, and it was wrong. i forgot i even wrote it until the thing with lovespeter was over. it was meant to be funny because at that time, there were no other ‘true vegans’ posting. then, of course, one saw it and was offended.
but that wasn’t even mentioned in the transaction- the requests for ‘lightening up’ came from another poster and she was chastised for it, as were a few others who considered themselves vegetarian but occasionally ate fish. i sort of stood up for them because, up until that point, the whole conversation had been a peaceful, cool affair. suddenly, there were postings from lovespeter with information about the true meaning of veganism (which was all true and not at all offensive in their own right), mixed with all sorts of devilish little lashings about EVERYONE in the room. the whole affair was very mellow and suddenly, it was anything but.
i don’t feel the need to turn you to my side on the matter because i feel it is of no consequence; you read the interactions and you made your own judgement. but at least know that there is another side to it and i did not in any way intend to offend. it was a big misunderstanding that got out of hand.
so, that’s my piece!
Whoa… this thread has had some really intense discussions going on since I left!
Maybe it wasn’t clear, but when I said “everyone is eating everyone”, I was referring to my area of study. And in my line of work, everyone really IS eating everyone! Marine environments involve incredibly diverse and flexible food chains. The sun shines and phytoplankton grow, which in turn are eaten by zooplankton, which are eaten by small fish, which are eaten by bigger fish, etc. Ever see one of those cartoons with a row of increasingly larger fish, all with their mouths open ready to eat each other? That’s not much of a stretch. But marine systems are also abundant, and while fish are being eaten, they’re also reproducing, often millions of offspring at a time. So overall, marine systems have a naturally high turnover rate and an incredible ability to expand. Large land mammals might have one offspring a year, birds a handfull, fish have millions. My eating a few fish a month has much less of an impact on the system than would eating longer-lived, slower-reproducing species like mammals or birds (this is also why I wouldn’t eat shark). I know that to those vegans and vegetarians who swear off flesh because they think killing animals is always ethically wrong, none of this would even seem relevant, but that’s difference to me. The biology.
I do agree with some of what you said though, in that I believe food has karmic consequences. David Wolfe has a really good chapter about food and karma in The Sunfood Diet Success System. He explains that even chimpanzees, our closest genetic relatives, never consume animal material (termites) as more than 10% of their diet. So while I still eat some fish, I have respect for their negative karmic value and try to balance fish with things like positive karma avocados and greens. And I only eat it on occasion, maybe 2% of my diet. I’m curious which ancient texts you refer to, Essene or Buddist perhaps? I’ve never looked much into those myself, maybe I should. I’ve always found the Dao De Jing to make the most sense to me. Balance and moderation, and especially the idea that the confusing concepts of “good” and “bad” were created when humans lost our place in the natural order of the world.
I’m also curious about the raw goats milk thing… In what ways do you notice it benefits your health or well-being? I’ve heard negative things with regard to milk being mucus-producing, is raw milk any different?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen raw lobster at a sushi bar. Probably because you’d want them to be very fresh, I doubt they’d keep well once dead. And I must say, although it was a LOT of work catching them, it was SO worth the effort! Good times, plus the Keys are beautiful, I think I’ll be visiting again in the future.
Holy cow! Your rant about the fridge gaskets had me laughing so hard I though I was gonna fall off the couch! I have pet birds and they were just looking at each other like “wtf is wrong with her?”. They’re raw too, by the way. They eat a sprouted diet so I guess they’ve been raw for longer than me!
I didn’t want to touch this topic because it was enjoyable to read as it is but just to add some thought for those who live in the USA and pay taxes (which most of the inhabitants do) are contributing whether they like it or not to animal suffering in several ways. The federal government subsidises factory farms with our tax dollars, the farm bill gives millions or even billions of dollars to farms that produce meat, eggs, and dairy. Besides that they also subsidise the pharmaceutical companies who are abusing animals for their drug testing programs, obviously there is a lot of tax money being diverted to pay for the war in Iraq and you can just imagine the consequences to animals there (what we hear about humans injured and killed is just the tip of the iceberg for the numbers of animals injured and killed and the injured animals do not get any medical aid, they are left to die of their injuries), there are many other programs which use tax dollars to mistreat and kill animals but the list is too long to leave here.